SLROC Forum
General Category => TECHNICAL CHAT => Topic started by: ruaritreble on November 19, 2013, 10:14:30 PM
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We were out last Sunday in the 2000 110. Parked up and came out of the meeting an hour later to find she would only turn over and not start.
A phone call later and we had a mate from up the road with his nanocom.
Nothing obvious, MAF - but this has been like this for some years.
Checked inertia switch
Fuel pump relay clicking in & running. Maybe it was quieter than usual or was I just thinking it was??
All engine management lights com on as they should.
Click test on nanocom for injectors is ok for all 5.
No fuel in oil
No oil in ecu injector harness.
Ecu plugs checked, relays & fuses checked. All seems ok.
Nanocom tells me ECu is not imobilised
She turns over but won't fire.
I did notice a small amount of water in the tray under the ecu. But wires & ecu were dry.
RAC man joins our party. His only comment was no RPM on his diagnostics.
He tried some spray in the air inlet to which it fired on this briefly. I'm not keen on this spray in a diesel.
Fuel pumps out the fuel cooler when disconnected.
Onto the flatbed home - at least it saved a few quid in diesel.
I have since changed the crankcase sensor.
Charged the battery
I removed the ecu & plug in chip had them in the house ontop the boiler for a few days.
But no further on.
Any ideas?
Could it be fuel pressure - i understand this should be 4bar of pressure even whilst cranking - I don't have a method of measuring this.
Bring on the warm light nights or a bigger garage.
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If it fires on the spray but wont run it could be water in the fuel. Have you checked the water trap?
Pete.
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If it fires on the spray but wont run it could be water in the fuel. Have you checked the water trap?
Pete.
Worth a try but the hazard light for water in the fuel wasn't illuminating.
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Get a 300 Tdi.
Simple....
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Hi ruari having spoke to a few people its looking like your ecu is the problem
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Hi,
I know you have said you tested the injector harness, did you check the plug from the cylinder head.
Mine did this and i checked the ecu end but eventually found oil in the plug at the head end. gave it a clean and off it went.
difficult to get to, so i ended up taking the plastic engine cover off to get to it.
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Was it ever run on bio diesel ? Could be fuel pump
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I have never put Bio diesel in it. However as the pump has done 130K I'm counting this as a serviceable item and I shall change it.
NO oil in the ecu plugs nor at the connector at the rocker cover.
Alive tuning have said they will test the ECU if the pump doesn't cure the problem.
-6 oC going to work this morning. To bloody cold to be footering at night on this. Only another week till I get a spare full day to look at it :o
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does the fuel pump run when you turn the ignition on?
have you checked/ cleaned the earths on the ecu mount & the main earth point thats under the expansion bottle?
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does the fuel pump run when you turn the ignition on?
have you checked/ cleaned the earths on the ecu mount & the main earth point thats under the expansion bottle?
Yes & Yes ran a new wire from ecu to battery for its earth, no to earth under expansion bottle.
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does it smoke out the exhaust when cranking over?
have you tried bleeding the fuel system (ignition on & 5 pumps on the throttle?)
having no engine rpm when cranking would point towards a crank sensor issue or a signal issue,
the td5 is quite a fussy engine for having the correct battery voltage ive found, engine might crank over ok but soon as ive put a jump on it its fired right up
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+1 on the above but have you tryed the crank position sensor on bell housing +wires to it
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No Smoke from exhaust.
I have been through the fuel bleed process.
Battery has been fully charged. I found that when the battery was dying it would always start. New battery did make a world of difference.
It has a new crank sensor - I need to check if it gets 2-3v on the wires whilst cranking.
I'm just not getting time to spend on the car. :'(
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Does anybody know the part number for the fuel pump retaining ring and the tank cradle?
I thought I would replace them whilst fitting a new pump.
Td5 110
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This any good? http://lrcat.com/31/4/53498
Are you changing the pump because you have found it faulty? I note you said you couldn't check the fuel pressure, have you checked area round the fuel pressure regulator for a leak? also worth checking the fuel filter some of the aftermarket ones can rust in less than a year. As mentioned td5's are fussy on fuel, we have had this a few times, we have put extra paint and even tape to try and get a better life out them.
Your welcome to borrow my nanocom if that of use.
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Cheers - that's the bits.
Tank is now out of the car. Plan of attack is new pump and then the filter, cross the fingers and hope it starts.
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Came across this might be of interest
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=73065
Tommy
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Hi Ruari, if you still have a starting problem after all this I would try your injector 0-rings. I have found that once you have gone over 100,000 miles they can fail. Its not expensive and easy to do. Do them one at a time and don't mix up the injectors.
Hope this helps
Kenny
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Interesting reading about the starter motor arcing inside which mixes up the ecu signal to injectors - so maybe worth bump starting to eliminate that problem.
Hopefully monday will see the fuel tank back in.
I wouldn't have expected the injector seals to be a problem as it was driving fine and next it just wouldn't start.
Starting to miss it now. As much as i'm loving the other landy its just not suitable for commuting.
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I must of done something really bad for this to be messing with my karma.
Still not running. Sounds to me like no fuel. This is either caused by air in the system or electrickery.
So far to date:
Cranksensor
Fuel pump
Fuel filter
Air bleed vlave
Injector washers & seals
2nd hand injector (x1) & rocker rail
Injector loom
Rocker seal
These have all been replaced.
Battery charged, several times
Fuel system purged several times
Tow start
Power is to the Ecu
Ecu tested OK by AliveTuning
No faults on nanaocom other than ABS & Aircon
Ecu reads not immobilised.
Still dosen't even try to fire.
My thoughts are change filter head, replace filter gauze at fuel regulator. Remove pipes from fuel regulator to make sure all air is removed.
Electric wise, check voltage at crank sensor replace starter motor. And then it's continuity checks of loom / replace.
Is there anything I'm missing?
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Did you reprogram the "new" injector into the ECM?
T
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have you checked there isnt a bent pin inside the injector loom plug at the head side been there done that b4
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The pins all seem to be good.
Replacment injector has been coded.
When cranking the engine, rpm on nanocom reads 0. Is this normal?
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Is it worth getting a compression tested done, even though I think you can only test 4 cylinders. This may not be any help
Greg
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I'm going to try the starter motor and then test a few wires before we go down compression test route.
5 cylinder engine with only 4 glow plugs.
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Did you run the bleed cycle correctly after having the fuel system apart?
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Bearmach fuel filter was filled before refitting.
Bleed process used of turning ignition key to pos.2 once pump stops press throttle pedal 5 times and pump runs a purge cycle. This has been repeated many times and last of all a tow start or tow non-start.
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have you tried fitting a different starter motor?
i would expect the engine rpm to read something whilst cranking over
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New starter went on last night. Still no joy :'(
However I did notice what may be a diesel leak from regulator. Not evident when looking from top of engine but once removed the starter the pipes above were damp. Maybe explains why I thought there was an oil leak on the sump.
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i had this with a van not to long ago the common rail had depressurised quick squirt of easy start and away it went .
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New starter went on last night. Still no joy :'(
However I did notice what may be a diesel leak from regulator. Not evident when looking from top of engine but once removed the starter the pipes above were damp. Maybe explains why I thought there was an oil leak on the sump.
If the leak from the FPR is bad enough this will be why its not starting, if your not in a hurry you can get a simple repair kit off ebay (Viton O Rings) generally the regulator is ok, just an o ring gone. Theres plenty of info on the net on how to do the repair.
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Regulator changed.
Wouldn't start so tried a long tow start, during this nanocom showed rpm to be zero, me thinks this is why it won't fire. Either new crank sensor or the ecu (tested OK) is faulty.
I tried to measure the voltage across the cranksensor wires at the ecu end. I was expecting 2-3V ac. Does any know the resiatance of the crank sensor?
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found this /it may well crank over fast enough,but spikes from the starter can get sent back up the battery lead and corrupt the crank sensor signal,so the ecu cant work out when to inject.
or this
The ECM measures the outputs from the CKP. The ECM measures the positive signal from the CKP at pin 13 of ECM
connector C0158. The ECM measures the negative signal from the CKP at pin 36 of ECM connector C0158. The earth
path is via pin 16 of ECM connector C0158.
Voltage generation from the CKP sensor is relative to engine speed. The values expected from a good CKP sensor
are as follows:
l 2 to 3 volts with engine cranking.
l Rising to 6 to 6.5 volts from 1000 rev/min upwards.
The above readings are dependent upon correct air gap between the tip of the CKP sensor and the passing teeth of
the reluctor ring. hope it helps
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Hi Mike
As it wouldn't start on a tow and the starter is replaced, I can rule out starter motor corrupting the signals to the crank sensor.
I tried to measure the voltage across the CKP during the tow - negligible readings. Note they are in AC volts. I have since been told you need to do this with an oscilloscope. I get to borrow that on Wednesday.
Alive Tuning couldn't tell me when do ECU diagnostics if the CKP ports were measured.
CKP has been replaced. I will need to check continuity of the wires to it.
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I am SO glad I have a 300 Tdi.
:-)
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At the cost and expense of all these parts you've been replacing I suggest you get it plugged into Testbook and see if that throws anything up.
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I had a similar thing with my td5.
turns out it was the wires about 8~12 inches from the plug for the crank position sensor, just under the inlet manifold. The wires had worn through the shielding and were shorting/separating etc.
the wires were inside the cable sleeving so was not obvious to look at.
resoldered the wires and insulated them. no problem since.
i would check the continuity as you suggested.
cheers
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Did a few continuity tests of the loom to the cranksensor and of the sensor. These came up all ok indicating ecu. Took the lid off the ecu to find signs of water ingress. Replacment ecu fitted coded to the injectors and set to learn the 10AS security. All back together and on the road.
Thanks for the help
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nice one ruari b@#&ard ecu after all at least
its up and running
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Nice one, there's nothing worse than chasing a fault and getting nowhere, who tested the ECU and said that it was fine????
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Alive Tuning tested the ECU. To give them the benefit of doubt, they did say it was most unlikely the ecu to be at fault. All the tests they do came back ok. Next stage would be to stick it in their car and program in the security & injectors and test run it.
I have spoke to them since suggesting in future they check crank sensor ports.
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Alive Tuning tested the ECU. To give them the benefit of doubt, they did say it was most unlikely the ecu to be at fault. All the tests they do came back ok. Next stage would be to stick it in their car and program in the security & injectors and test run it.
I have spoke to them since suggesting in future they check crank sensor ports.
And this is the same company who did not advise changing a set of injectors that were tested and known to be flowing less than 60% but insisted from proceding with a remap. Last I heard they do not have T4 and do not do comprehensive health checks on vehicles before mapping. From personal experience and having worked on several of their tuned cars I wouldn't go near them with a bargepole.
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Another one that can cause this is injector seals, very cheap to replace, sorry if this has been mentioned.